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Integrity vs. Honesty

topic posted Thu, January 6, 2005 - 10:37 PM by  Angel of Love
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What (if any) is the difference between integrity and honesty?

Are they related? Can you have one without the other?

I have an opinion but I'd like to hear someone elses thoughts first.
posted by:
Angel of Love
Portland
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    Re: Integrity vs. Honesty

    Thu, January 6, 2005 - 10:57 PM
    I think there's a big difference....

    Here's Merriam Webster's definitions:

    honesty
    1 obsolete : CHASTITY
    2 a : fairness and straightforwardness of conduct b : adherence to the facts : SINCERITY
    3 : any of a genus (Lunaria) of European herbs of the mustard family with toothed leaves and flat disk-shaped siliques

    integrity
    1 : firm adherence to a code of especially moral or artistic values : INCORRUPTIBILITY
    2 : an unimpaired condition : SOUNDNESS
    3 : the quality or state of being complete or undivided : COMPLETENESS

    I think these outline the difference pretty well. To me, honesty has to do with being truthful and straightforward. Integrity has more to do with adhering to an incorruptible set of moral values, and/or being whole and complete within oneself.

    Many people have honesty without integrity, but few have integrity without honesty.
    • Re: Integrity vs. Honesty

      Thu, January 6, 2005 - 11:02 PM
      Ah yes - someone who resorts to the dictionary like I do!:)

      I am in full agreement with only a slight modification. I believe you can have honesty without integrity but integrity includes honesty (if not entirely by definition).

      Now that second question: What is the real life application of the difference?
    • Re: Integrity vs. Honesty

      Sun, September 3, 2006 - 1:06 PM
      I found this blog[?] searching for SINCERITY vs HONESTY. I have been told, twice by the same person that, 'I couldn't hide behind my sincerity, and that sincerity is not the same thing as honesty. The person who told me is a priest and he also teaches, but fails to 'teach' or, explain to me what he means.
      Does anyone out there know what he might be talking about?
      I thought that honesty had to do with telling the truth, and sincerity with telling the truth from your heart, no frills...
      • Re: Integrity vs. Honesty

        Sun, September 3, 2006 - 2:02 PM
        Hmmm does he mean that while you are sincere in what you say it simply is not true(In his opinion)? or that sincerely not believing in what he thinks is true will not save you from what he believes the consequences will be? (I got this line alot when I was younger and would talk to religious people about my spiritual beliefs)

        Being honest isn't exactly telling *the* truth. Being honest is about being truthful about what you think and feel, it is not connected to what is *the truth* if we believe there is *a truth* (I do, but that's a whole different discussion:o)
        Sincerity is defined as

        Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1) - Cite This Source new!
        sin‧cere  [sin-seer] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

        –adjective, -cer‧er, -cer‧est.
        1. free of deceit, hypocrisy, or falseness; earnest: a sincere apology.
        2. genuine; real: a sincere effort to improve; a sincere friend.
        3. pure; unmixed; unadulterated.
        4. Obsolete. sound; unimpaired.

        You can sincerely believe something that is not true. You can say something sincerely that is full of frills(o:

        is any of this helping?
        • Re: Integrity vs. Honesty

          Sun, September 3, 2006 - 4:10 PM
          Boy...it took some doing to get back to this site,lol!

          I think he means that I'm lying about something, sort of like what you wrote in your forst paragraph. where after you write in parenthesis that 'you got that alot when you were younger,',,etc.

          But I'd rather he just come out and say that I'm a liar; I've told him the he was a liar twice, and was good enough to explain why I thought so.
          He just keeps saying what I mentioned about sincerity vs honesty, adding that I cannot hide behind my sincerity; what does that mean!?

          That's true what you write about motivation in the honesty
          • Re: Integrity vs. Honesty

            Sun, September 3, 2006 - 5:39 PM
            bookmark www.tribe.net (I made it my homepage but then I'm completely addicted:o) If you are going to be hanging around and checking the site out I suggest joining newbies.tribe.net/ where you can find the answer to or ask any question. You can also browse around and find more tribes you might enjoy. There is one for anything you can think of I think(O: including the ones that are in the related tribes of this tribe(on the left hand side of the main page for this tribe)

            Maybe it would help to know what you are saying that he is responding to this way? I might not be a good person to ask, I can try to be objective but I tend to have trouble with strict dogma and I wonder if it might be a case of what you know inside of you not matching up with what he wants you to believe.

            Welcome to tribe!
            • Re: Integrity vs. Honesty

              Sun, September 3, 2006 - 11:16 PM
              Thanks for the warm and helpful welcome; I'll visit the reccommended sites, and for now I'm exactly where I want to be:)

              This morning I had reminded him that I had sent an email to him, suggesting he and I get together to talk with this other person about [this] disagreement he and I had been rehashing;
              That's when he said, "When are you going to get honest!" "sincerity and not the same thing as honesty!"

              But I tell you...I just found the email which I spoke of; I will forward it to him tomorrow morning.

              We had a disagreement about the interpretation of an ethics code from the AAPC. He said that he had consulted an 'expert' but would not give me the guy/gals name that I might confirm.

              I said, let's get together with your boss, this other person, you and me; Then YOU explain to them [boss and other party] why and how you know you are so accurate.

              Here is part of my 'disclaimer:
              PRINCIPLE V1 - INTER PROFESSIONAL RELATIONSHIPS:
              As members of AAPC We relate to and cooperate with other professional persons in our community and beyond. we are part of a network of health care professionals and are expected to develop and maintain interdisciplinary and inter professional relationships
              A. WE DO NOT OFFER ONGOING CLINICAL SERVICES TO PERSONS CURRENTLY RECEIVING TREATMENT FROM ANOTHER PROFESSIONAL WITHOUT PRIOR KNOWLEDGE OF AND IN CONSULTATION WITH THE OTHER PROFESSIONAL, WITH THE CLIENTS INFORMED CONSENT. SOLICITING SUCH CLIENTS IS UNETHICAL


              .

              NOW,,,,I BELIEVE THAT THIS THESIS STATEMENT: " A. WE DO NOT OFFER ON GOING CLINICAL SERVICES TO PERSONS CURRENTLY RECEIVING TREATMENT FROM ANOTHER PROFESSIONAL WITHOUT PRIOR KNOWLEDGE OF AND IN CONSULTATION WITH THE OTHER PROFESSIONAL, WITH THE CLIENTS INFORMED CONSENT." IS THE 'PROOF,' IF YOU WILL, TO THE CONCLUSION, WHICH STATES: "SOLICITING SUCH CLIENTS IS UNETHICAL."

              I BELIEVE THAT THE STATEMENT:"WITH THE CLIENTS INFORMED CONSENT." MEANS THAT WITHOUT THE CONSENT, THE 'SEEING' OF THIS CLIENT COULD BE CONSTRUED AS UNETHICAL, IN THAT, [THIS] COULD BE LOOKED ON AS 'SOLICITATION.'
              IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT ONE IS NOT ALLOWED TO COUNSEL THE CLIENT IF THE CLIENT CHOOSES NOT TO SIGN CONSENT!, I BELIEVE.
              MY DR., DR.LESTER MINDUS, PHD. AGREES WITH ME, HE EMAILED AND I READ EMAIL TO FR. [....]; FR.[.......] DISREGARDED DR.[..........] INTERPRETATION. DR. [............] EMAIL TO ME:

              Subject: ETHICS QUESTION...Thanks [...].. > The easy one first. Other "professionals" refers to relevant professionals, > probably psychological, psychiatric , or spiritual. The other part means > that the priest should prefer to consult with a relevant professional, but > not withhold services if the client does not give informed consent. It > doesn't mean he can DEMAND CONSENT, ELSE THAT WOULD NULLIFY THE ORDINARY > MEANING OF CONSENT. Hope this helps. Additionally, you have the right to > limit or specify the subject matter and focus of the consent. You can also > specify a specific time limiting the period of consent.
              Subject: Re: ETHICS QUESTION...Thanks [...]. I don't think that he can demand that you MUST be in therapy. The determining health professional would be the psychiatrist, and he didn't demand it. Additionally, have you ever heard of a psychiatrist who says, "I won't medicate you if you refuse to see a therapist"? This might occur very rarely if someone needed hospitalization or couldn't be trusted to responsibly take their meds. You could authoize me or better, your psychiatist to simply verify that you are resonsibly taking your meds and are not a danger to self or others. I'm sure your release form could specify that that was the ONLY information you allowed to be released.


              So there you have it; do you agree...?
              • Re: Integrity vs. Honesty

                Sun, September 3, 2006 - 11:57 PM
                I'm trying to read the stuff but my brain is just not soaking it up. I will try to remember to look tomorrow. But I'm not really sure from what I can grasp of it why sincerity would have anything to do with a policy that a group follows.
                • Re: Integrity vs. Honesty

                  Mon, September 4, 2006 - 7:24 AM
                  Well..you asked me to give a little background, and I have. And like I said, I have no idea why he is telling me what he has regarding sincerity vs honesty..!

                  I guess I wanted your opinion on the interpretation[s] of the ethics code; both from my prospective and from the Dr.s as well....:)
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Integrity vs. Honesty

                    Mon, September 4, 2006 - 11:47 AM
                    well it's kind of a tricky area, because if it was spiritual stuff then it would seem that he was saying that even if you sincerely believe something it still might not be true in the opinion of this man. If it was something purely factual then it would seem that was his way of saying he thought you were lying. But this seems like it is somewhere in between, there are ethics which could fall into the first catagory, and there are precidents that would fall into the second because this is not an area where you are making a decision on how things should be (as I understand things) this is a situation where there is going to be precident to how things are done.

                    I don't have any interest in trying to figure out who is right or wrong. I will say that you can prefer he call you a liar if that is what he thinks but that doesn't really have any effect on what he does. You could say to him "is that your way of saying you think I'm lying?" and just ask him straight out.
                    • Re: Integrity vs. Honesty

                      Tue, September 5, 2006 - 9:36 AM
                      Hi..thanks for your input:)

                      The precident is supposidly already set; the priest has one interpretation, I have another. This is not about being right or wrong; it is about being ACCURATE..:) Getting other perspectives is what I'm looking for; If they happen to match either the priest's, or, mine is just fine with me.
                      My attempt is not to put anyone in the perverbiel middle; or, to set anyone up to judge; although, making a judgement about my inquiry regarding the ethics code is what I'm looking for....
                      • Re: Integrity vs. Honesty

                        Tue, September 5, 2006 - 10:02 AM
                        I am sure with a clear explaination of what the debate is you could find a tribe where people would be happy to interpret that and some very qualified to do so. It feels off topic to me in this tribe though. Just off the top of my head my understanding/interpretation of the policy would be that they would only treat someone without the knowledge and consent of other appropriate people for an emergency or an initual urgent situation, but not ongoing. That this policy is in place for continuity of care and safety not a worry about stepping on toes. But that's just my instinct, I'm not really knowledgeable enough to make have a solid opinion on this.

                        as for consent not being able to be demanded I think that you can not force someone to consent...but you can certainly place your own boundries and say you do not have to consent but I can not treat you if you do not. Not being able to demand consent does not nullify someone else's right to have ethics and boundries.
                        • Re: Integrity vs. Honesty

                          Tue, September 5, 2006 - 10:38 AM
                          First, If u read my first post u will find that I 'stumbled into this 'tribe' looking up, sincerity vs honesty; you don't think I belong..oh well, didn't mean to step on your toes..:)

                          Second, the boundry thing is MY issue; the priest had been 'seeing' me, and knew of my shrink, for 5 solid months! He got into a power struggle with me, and decided to pull rank; He teaches EHICS and knew of the code from the first day we meet, so he nor anyone else can claim that 'maybe he didn't know..:)'

                          I appreciate the way you think; go one and respond to the original topic...I can 'meet' you there and discuss that, okay...:)
                          • Re: Integrity vs. Honesty

                            Tue, September 5, 2006 - 10:50 AM
                            we are not communicating very well. Sincerity vs Honesty is completely on topic for this tribe, I'm not the moderator or anyone to decide who is welcome or not. A particular debate about a particular policy seems off topic to me.

                            In every situation there are as many boundries as there are people.You have your boundries and that doesn't have any effect on him having boundries. You have to live in the area not cut off by either of your boundries. If I create a boundry of not talking about specific policy issues in this tribe, you can discuss anything that does not violate your boundries...but that is unrelated to my being involved in any discussions that cross my boundries. He has boundries in this situation, maybe he was stretching them to "see" you at first thinking it was an urgent situation or that you would eventually consent to the notification of your shrink. Sometimes it's takes us a bit of time to find our boundries. It doesn't make them any less valid. Just as he can not force you to consent you can not force him to see you anymore.

                            I have no idea what that means.
                            • Re: Integrity vs. Honesty

                              Tue, September 5, 2006 - 11:42 PM
                              I find it very interesting that I was willing to get off my so called 'not=on-target-topic..' and said I would pick up and discuss with you, 'INTEGRITY VS HONESTY...But you chose instead to keep defending, as in giving him the benefit of the doubt./ I 'fired him..:) a while ago because I chose NOT to allow him to cross my boundries.
                              Yes we BOTH have boundries; but I believe that his so called boundry is INAPPROPREATE. I came to him with my personal growth project; he wanted to turn me into a client/counselee, when I didn't want to be a counselee; he started all that other crap, as in, "if you won't be my counselee,,,,I won't see you at all, unless you jump through all these hoops!'

                              I don't chose to force him to see me; but ACCOUNTABILTY for his actions/inappropriateness is what's on the menu for the next few months:)


                              You sound defensive; you are a counselor...? of some sort.

                              Now what did you have to say about INTEGRITY VS HONESTY???:)
                              • Re: Integrity vs. Honesty

                                Wed, September 6, 2006 - 9:00 AM
                                I just addressed what I thought you were talking about. I was very clear that your style of writing is not clear to me. If you want to talk about integrity vs honesty then please do.
                                • Re: Integrity vs. Honesty

                                  Thu, September 7, 2006 - 9:08 AM
                                  Stella,
                                  I am the moderator of this tribe and I am fine with having a conversation about integrity vs. honesty in this tribe (since I obviously started the thread.) Debating counselling policy is not relevant for this tribe and there are plenty of "therapist" oriented tribes that might be happy to have this conversation with you.

                                  After reading through your conversation with SV I have to say that I am thoroughly confused about what you are actually wanting to talk about.

                                  It appears this priest has made a statement you don't understand about being honest in regards to some conversation you have had - possibly on the subject of policy and counselling. However, the entire context and relevancy of the priest's statement and how you got to that point in the conversation feels very unclear to me. You have provided very little detail about how integrity vs. honesty got connected to the policy discussion. I am wondering if there is a huge amount of context you are missing, not understanding, or leaving out.

                                  In regards to your original question I have this to say:

                                  I see sincerity being about the meaning and intention behind the words. I can sincerely care about someone, I can sincerely mean to be nice, I can sincerely communicate my desires with someone.

                                  I see honesty being about the words I use and their relevance to reality. I can speak honestly about how I feel, I can speak honestly about my opinion, I can communicate with honesty.

                                  However I can speak sincerely without honesty and honestly without sincerity.

                                  Hope that helps.
                                  • Re: Integrity vs. Honesty

                                    Sat, September 9, 2006 - 1:56 PM
                                    Angel...How did you become the moderator? I ask because I would like to start a 'tribe' or, topic of my own to moderate...:)

                                    Thanks for your comments.

                                    You wrote: You have provided very little detail about how integrity vs. honesty got connected to the policy discussion

                                    My reply: Actually..I did give detail. I wrote that I was doing a search on SINCERITY VS HONESTY, and I got this 'trive' link. It was something being posed by the priest, whom I was having the policy issue with,,,get it. So in talking about the one I had to talk about the other.
                                    • Re: Integrity vs. Honesty

                                      Sat, September 9, 2006 - 5:15 PM
                                      Stella,
                                      I know how you found this tribe - I got that part.

                                      What I don't understand, and apparently neither does StrongVoice - is how sincerity vs. honesty is related to this conversation on the policy you quoted.

                                      I don't understand the connection other than the priest said something about it. But the context of your conversation and why he said that feels like a missing piece here that we don't understand.

                                      As for how I got to be moderator - I started the tribe. Go to the Tribes link in the icon section and start a new tribe.
  • Re: Integrity vs. Honesty

    Tue, April 25, 2006 - 7:57 AM
    Hosesty is doing the right thing because you may get caught and punished if you don't. Intregrity is doing the right thing when no one will know but you.
    • Re: Integrity vs. Honesty

      Tue, April 25, 2006 - 2:12 PM
      Wow - that's an interesting perspective. I like the idea though - honesty is about showing others, integrity is about showing yourself.

      The implication in your words is that the motivation is external though. Just my thoughts.
      • Re: Integrity vs. Honesty

        Tue, April 25, 2006 - 10:34 PM
        I like the thought provoking quality of that concept but I just don't agree with it(the original perspective not your comments AOL). I would agree that while you can be honest for external reasons, that does not IMO define honesty. Maybe that is the difference? Honesty can come from different motivations, but integrity must come from a place inside of you? Maybe. I will think about this more.
        • Re: Integrity vs. Honesty

          Wed, April 26, 2006 - 9:24 AM
          SV,
          Yeah that's what I was trying to get at! I'm not honest because I'm afraid of getting caught - hell I can be a great liar if I want to (thanks dad!) I'm honest for me - it just happens to impact other people.

          Interestingly I think it's my intention for honesty that drives my integrity. Maybe. Hmmm...that seems a little chicken and the egg to me. I'll have to ponder that one I guess.
          • Re: Integrity vs. Honesty

            Wed, April 26, 2006 - 12:03 PM
            thinking about it...I think that my integrity drives my honesty. Mostly. Sometimes my honesty comes from a different place. Rarely the fear of being caught, occasionally irratation at someone(if it came from integrity I would say the same thing...but in a different way and from a different place), sometimes out of laziness...it takes so much energy to lie for me, and probably alot of the time now it is out of habit that was built while working hard to uphold my integrity.
            • Re: Integrity vs. Honesty

              Fri, September 8, 2006 - 11:50 PM
              I'm not honest because I'm afraid of being caught if I'm not. I'm honest because I want to deal with what is truly going on, whether it's something that I'm feeling or what I see happening in a situation or whatever. I need to make sure I'm being honest with myself first, and not just seeing things the way that I want them to be. From there I need to try to communicate as clearly as I can what that is. I'm honest because of a commitment to seeing and experiencing reality as directly and clearly as I can. "Honesty is always the best policy" because you are dealing with the truth and you know what is going on, whether you lke it or not. If you don't like it, then you can look at what is really happening and make the best possible choice that you can concerning the situation, deciding what if anything you want to do to try to change it. I guess using the definitions at the beginning of the thread, my integrity grows out of my keeping a commitment to do this.
  • Re: Integrity vs. Honesty

    Mon, June 21, 2010 - 3:56 PM
    What I'm hearing from y'all is this: honesty is doing "the right thing" because you're told, expected, or supposed to (your external motivators); integrity is doing *the right thing* because its the right thing to do (your internal motivators)?
    • Re: Integrity vs. Honesty

      Mon, June 21, 2010 - 3:57 PM
      Also, I won't hesitate to lie if I feel that something is nobody else's business.
      • Re: Integrity vs. Honesty

        Mon, June 21, 2010 - 11:33 PM
        So, why not just say it's nobody else's business? Or just not answer?
        • Re: Integrity vs. Honesty

          Thu, June 24, 2010 - 5:04 AM
          I've done that, too. But there's a mischevious little imp inside me that likes to have fun, and I'm not going to deprive him--he is a fount of creativity...besides, nosy people set themselves up for it. They don't exactly deserve respect.
          • Re: Integrity vs. Honesty

            Thu, June 24, 2010 - 6:48 PM
            I have a different view. I give respect because I'm a respectful person. I believe that how you treat someone is about who you are, not who they are.

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